What is up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the Chasing Daylight Podcast. Not our typical Tuesday night live show. Tonight, I am recording an interview with uh Jackson Davison and Mike. I am not even going to try to say your last name. Uh, these two gentlemen are the co-founders of Exchange Golf. And if you have paid any attention to the podcast over the last couple months, we’ve been talking about this. They have a fantastic product that is out that uh helps you make adjustments to a putter, but keep the head the same. So, gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having us. It’s it’s Vrezma, by the way. Vrezma. Okay. I’ll put my last name and and just call him just call him Vreeze. Vries. I’ve heard every butchering you can possibly imagine.

Yeah, I I have nine letters in my last name with one vowel. So yeah, it’s it’s fun. So yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me tonight. Um, Jeff Walk uh has connected us, and you guys sent me out some products. You know, I threw some Garson grips on a couple different variants. So I’ve got one putter head with three different styles of grips on it. It’s a very unique product, and we’re gonna get into the product, I promise. That’s one of the reasons we’re here for. But when I do these interviews, I love hearing the stories uh about your backgrounds, about what made you go, let’s make a putter shaft that can adapt to different lengths and grip styles, but keeping the head the same. So, Jackson, let’s start

with you. Uh, what’s your background in the game and what turned you on to starting Exchange Golf?

Well, I’ll I’ll be completely honest. Me getting into this side of the business is what started Exchange Golf. It just happened a long time ago. Um background moved to uh Florida after playing college golf uh in Grand Rapids at Davenport University and moved down there to kind of chase playing golf and ended up getting a job uh fitting golf clubs at a golfsmith down there and kind of getting into the equipment tech side of things and starting to learn how to fit people for golf clubs. And that was when that was in 2013, probably at the peak of when fitting equipment started really becoming extremely uh advanced and and a little bit more mindful of of what people are looking for. And so, you know, long story short, ended up moving on, taking a job as an assistant golf professional at a private club in just outside of Orlando called Tuscawilla, and uh that led me kind of across the country to Florida, back to Michigan, playing mini tours, crossing the country, ended up in Grand Rapids at a place called Quail Ridge, and then ended up down in southwest Michigan called Harbor Shores, and that’s where I’m currently at. And I’m the PGA head golf professional there and have been there for about nine years now, and um so let’s backtrack that was nine years since I started at Harbor Shores, minus another five or six. That brings us back to about 2014. And in 2014, and that excuse my terrible math, I was never as strong as two. Um in 2014, I was standing over there at Tuscawilla, and I was re-gripping actually my own putter. And I was a die hard blade guy, and I was putting with the Scotty Cameron, Newport, Terillium. I was never ever gonna give it up. It was my forever putter. Talk to me now, and that’s not necessarily the case, but at that time I just I was I was committed to putting with it, and I really, really enjoyed putting with the blade. And I was cutting off, you know, probably at that point was a very expensive classic Scotty Cameron grip that you know is probably worth way more money now than it was back then. And um, you know, as I was slicing it with the uh with the hook blade, I was thinking, you know, what if I ever wanted to go back to this? And here I am, I’m investing $25 into this new super stroke. And what happens if I don’t even like that? And then mind you, I’m an assistant golf professional getting paid not a ton of money back in 2013 and first year in the business, struggling, not struggling, but you know, playing mini tour golf and trying to figure out how to make money out there and and how to stay afloat. So those $25 grip changes are important, and not only are they important for making money on the golf course, but they’re important if you don’t like it and you have to spend more money on a new grip. So that’s where it all stemmed. And I I was fortunate enough to have support playing the mini tours, and I had a gentleman who was you know extremely gracious with with helping me get through that, and and I went to him and talked to him and said, Hey, I got this idea. What what do you think it would take to kind of get it going? And he said, Well, you’re gonna need to yeah have an engineer that’s gonna be able to bring the idea to life, and you’re also gonna need to hire a patent lawyer, and that’s gonna be about ten thousand dollars. And so right then and there, I was like, all right, well, I’ll just keep this idea to myself then because I don’t have any of that, and unless I win about 10 mini tour events in a row, I probably still wouldn’t have enough. Um you know, and then you fast forward to about two years ago, uh 2024, and Mike, who uh you know, he’ll get into it, but he uh long story short, he he builds putters and he builds uh he’s got a CNC mill, and he’s a very, very talented uh not only club builder, but a talented engineer. And he uh his creative mind never stops working, so he builds uh that’s a good thing. It is a great thing, and he builds our so I got the idea of for doing our member guest trophies. He built the putters for us, and and I kind of started thinking, all right, well, you know, he’s he’s obviously got the brain, he’s got some of the the tools. Engineer, come on now. Yeah, it was like that. It was like immediately I was like, Mike and I had already had a relationship prior to that. I actually gave his dad golf lessons long before I actually knew who Mike was. And Mike and I developed a relationship throughout that year, and that’s what led to kind of the putter conversation with the trophies, and you know, I was comfortable bringing the idea to his attention, just say, Hey, what do you think about this? And I’ll never forget it. And he had a prototype on my desk in like 48 hours.

And I’m gonna love 3D printers, man. Right?

And I’m like, I’m I’m sitting there like, holy shit, like this is this is real, and you know, to be completely fair, and I apologize to my brother because he will inevitably see this. Sorry, Trent, but I brought the idea to him, and he is also an engineer, and we’ve talked about it, but this was when I was like, you know, 20, 25, 26 years old, and he was just starting at his job, and we’re talking about building this amazing product and building a business off of it, and you know, I think it just came down to time and the reality of whether or not we could bring it to life, and you know, then you know, God bless my brother, but we we we thought through it very quickly, and we didn’t think that much beyond that. And so the conversation with Mike and having a prototype on the desk that fast, I was just like, this this is possible, and so then we started talking through and going through the iterations of what things look like, and you know, my I wouldn’t say expertise, but my knowledge of golf clubs, my knowledge of how they need to perform, my knowledge of of what they need to set up like. And Mike was he’s a great listener, and he took all that and he refined it over and over and over and over. And in product development, which is kind of what he specialized in and what he’ll talk about, that’s that was in his DNA. And together we built something that we thought was was gonna be good, and we we took it to the uh to the USGA and kind of went through the compliance program of how was that? It was it was honestly yeah, but all things considered, they were amazing to work with. Yeah, totally. And it was it was very easy,

and they were open, they were open for discussion, they were open for suggestions, they were very helpful with telling us kind of where our originals needed to be modified, and that’s that’s ultimately what was able to lead us to where we’re at with our current current product, and in the XG1 being USGA compliant with kind of the rules of adjustability for golf clubs and golf equipment, that was that was the big kicker. We needed to be compliant with the rules of adjustability. And once we were able to meet the criteria there, I mean we had what we filed for our patent like two days after we got certified from the USCA, and we’re like, all right, we got this. Yeah, and I think we filed for the business like three days after, and we were we uh we were pumped, we were really, really excited, and we knew it was gonna be a a challenge and a hurdle, but like I said, he’s he’s a very good product developer, and that’s in his DNA. And I can’t be uh more fortunate and and more blessed that we were able to cross paths and just bounce ideas off each other. And he happened to listen to a 10-year-old idea that I had that uh somehow nobody else has ever it seems like other people have tried to think of it, but nothing that has been playable and nothing that has been quite what we have, which is uh which is really special.

All right, Mike, before we get into your story, uh Jackson, you said something for forever putter. It wasn’t my forever putter, but do you have a forever putter now? Uh no. No, okay.

I have a forever putter that. Well, I said it to Mike last year, and I said it, I said it to my Tailormade rep. I, you know, God bless you, Callaway, guys. But I’ve uh I’ve been a Tailor-made staffer for a long time. So thanks to uh Garrett Smith and shout out to him. And we uh him and I have had a lot of conversations, and I told him last year, I said, I want to find my forever putter. Like the last year was the depths of my putting, and I wanted to commit to something, stick to something, and have the ability to change the feel while I was keeping something relatively constant, and you know, we we can dive into it a little bit this year, but I thought I found what was gonna be that forever putter. And I thought or what is it? Well, spider, spider, and uh and then I found spider ZT, and I was like, wow, this is even better.

Um currently you almost you almost convinced me to buy one.

I’m still going to, don’t there’s still a lot of time left in your golf career, Mike. Um but you know the funny thing this year is I I found that one thing was constant, and I’ve I’ve gone through three heads this year. I went from a spider tour or a spider X with a kind of that long flowy slant neck, and then I went to the ZT, and then I went, and what I’m currently gaming is a spider X with the short slant. And the one thing that’s remained constant is the grip, and that I thought was a pretty amazing thing to be able to do is switch head to head. I thought I was gonna be switching grips, yeah, and that’s quite frankly the reason why this idea came to life is being able to switch grips and switch the feel, but I’m currently putting with uh with a Garson uh quad tour pistol non-tapered, and I love it.

Good man, it’s amazing.

And I putted with it on my spider tour with the uh with the flowy slant neck. I putted with it with my CT, and ultimately my favorite combination this year is putting with it with the short slant. And so, what I thought was gonna be my reason for our product actually was the opposite use case that I knew was available, I just didn’t think it would apply to me. I I’m one that is very triggered by how the putter feels in my hand, and that starts with the grip. And so I thought, okay, if I can find a head that I like, I can maybe modify the feel. And we all know when something feels good, it’s it’s just it changes your mentality with putting. I’ll probably go, I’ll probably go against a lot of putter fitters and I’ll go against a lot of lot of gear junkies that truly believe in tech and science, which I also believe in. But the reality is the feel is in your hands, and if it doesn’t feel good, you just you’re gonna you’re gonna have a tough time making putts that matter.

Yeah.

Overall, your statistic your statistics might go up, but as a competitive golfer and somebody that still competes, and what I think is I try to compete at a high enough level, you’re gonna have to make putts that matter. And you can’t fall back on data to make those putts. It’s gotta be instincts, it’s gotta be feel.

That’s something with me with the ZT craze and the and the lab putter craze. Yeah, they feel amazing. I just I can’t not look at that much onset. It just is so like unpleasant for me to look down and see that much club between the shaft and the ball. It’s just it’s so awkward.

Um, I mean it was it was enough of a change for me where like we know that big changes can lead to big result changes. Going from what I was so familiar with, and I’ve been putting with a spider for quite a while now, and I’ve been bouncing back and forth from maybe the TP Reserve series and going from blade to like the fang and different different models of that, but ultimately spider I landed on, and I always kept gravitating back to it. And the the stability of the spider has always been proven, and putters that are designed like it, they they thrive, people thrive with them. The uh, you know, the the reality is is if you don’t feel comfortable stroking it, don’t stroke it, go stroke something different. Yep, and that’s where the ZT looked totally different to me. And I wasn’t going to, you know, like I said, I’ve been so fortunate with Taylor Made that I don’t have to go spend the amounts of money to go buy the big time, big time zero torque putters, and so I was I said, all right, well, I’ll get this ZT chance. I I love the idea of zero torque, I want to see if I like it, I want to see if it looks good. And they did a great job with the ZT, and I think it looks good enough to me. And it was a big enough change where I started feeling different about putting. And then you start seeing them go in and you start developing a belief in what you’re doing is right and the technology, and you know, the the wand is is doing the work, and you as a putter, you’re gonna make your best strokes when you feel good about it. And as an instructor, it’s one of those things where when I when I talk to people about putting, it’s there are the dynamics of teaching the stroke, but it’s more or less be comfortable, stand comfortable. Jack Nicholas standed, his stance was a little bit unconventional, but he was comfortable. Yeah, that’s all that mattered. How about Ben Crenshaw? You know, you’re talking some of the best putters and maybe the best clutch putters of all time. I mean, Tiger, a little bit of an open stance, but all things considered, maybe he has the most fundamentally sound putter stance amongst all the best putters that have ever putted. It’s uh it’s a comfort thing, and yeah, yeah, for me it was it was finding comfort in what I was looking at, what was in my hands, what it felt like, and you putt with instincts, and that’s that’s ultimately what’s gonna help you make putts when it really matters.

All

right, engineer. Um, here you go. So uh I was born and raised in St. Joe, Michigan, where I currently live. Um, and kind of always had an engineering mind. Uh, went to school in Grand Rapids, uh, Michigan, and got an engineer, mechanical engineering degree. And uh I’ve been a lifetime golfer. Um, my parents were members of uh country club from when I was two, and so I had lessons from as soon as they would let us on the range. Um and great, great way to grow up. Um just having having that availability there. Um and yeah, so I once I got my degree, I moved back uh to St. Joe and I started at Whirlpool Corporation. Um, I was a product development engineer at at Whirlpool.

And I blame you for my washer and dryer issues.

Yeah, if if you need any dryer help, let me know. Uh chances are I worked on it. My refrigerators, my refrigerator is warm. So bad. Plug it in. Um, yeah, so I worked on dryers for eight years from 2013 to uh 2021. Actually, no, 2020. Um, and I moved to advanced development at Whirlpool uh literally two weeks before COVID happened. Um and uh so got through COVID, was still in advanced development, and there was I really learned like I took the development side of things that I learned in like on the we called it the platform team, um, kind of some of the things I learned there and was able to apply that to advanced. Development. And that’s where we worked on a lot of stuff that never would really even see the light of day. Um, but a lot of like, hey, this is an idea we have for what a customer might need. Um, and so just kind of a lot of iteration, like that was kind of our thing is how do we make prove out a concept fast? Um, and I really had a knack for that. Um, I had a a pretty deep understanding of different manufacturing processes and um and also prototyping. So while I was there, I learned how to operate a CNC mill, and um, which ultimately led to making my first putters from a bill of the steel. And um, so that’s actually how this whole conversation with Jackson started is I I play I do a uh weekend golf trip with some buddies every year, and um the rule is, and we all grew up on the same neighborhood, and the rule is the loser from the previous year has to provide merch for our trip the following year, and it has to be branded. We call it the Westwood Golf Association because that was the street we grew up on. Um, and so I was like, and I lost bad the year before, and and I’m like, you know, I’m just gonna one up everyone and I’m gonna make four custom putters and make them from scratch. It’s gonna have our our logo was uh Google Maps Trace of the neighborhood with stars where each of our houses were, and um so I suffered my way through machining my first putter, and I took it to Jackson and I was like, Hey, I I and I I didn’t even know how to put in a double bent because at that time it was just a blade, and I just did a bore for a double bent shaft, and I had no clue about loft and lie and all that stuff. And I take it to Jackson and I was like, Hey, I I need you to to shaft this for me. And he looks at me, he’s like, How the hell did you break a putter? thinking like I snapped the shaft and I needed a new one. And I was like, No, I’ve I’ve broken a few putters. I’ve broken a wedge. Um for good reason. Uh so and then Jackson uh he was like, You made this, and you know, you were pretty blown away by it, even though I thought it was not the greatest craftsmanship. Um, and I took, and then a couple days later he called me and asked about the member guest uh tournament if I’d be willing to make putters for them. Um I apologize to the members who got those putters because there’s the early versions. Um the best putter I make is the next one. Um and uh yeah, and that kind of just blossomed like Jackson said that blossomed into a hey, I’ve got an idea. Can I buy you lunch? And talk through the idea. And I I’ve got I’ve got an entrepreneurial brain and desire. And um when when he mentioned the idea, the brain just started firing. I was like, okay, sweet business opportunity, and it’s got engineering challenges, like it’s not easy. Um and and yeah, we just it took us probably two years. And how many prototypes do you think we had, Jackson? Six or seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From 3D printed to poorly machined to uh you know, but we we finally found something.

Did he warn you ahead of time? Hey, the golf space is nasty.

He did not, but but you know what, the that and that’s the beauty of it, is like it’s not for everyone, and like we know that some people they’re fine just playing a stock Scottie Cameron or stock Odyssey, and that’s okay, like and but for the people that that really want to tinker, I have forever been. I mean, I got new clubs last year, and I was playing clubs that I got fit for in high school, and so they were 17-year-old titleist irons. And it’s just like I just never been the gear junkie style person. Um, you know, I’m I’m Dutch, which you could tell by the last name, so I still have a uh hesitancy to drop money on golf equipment, but um maybe that’s why I need others. Not on a CNC mill. Well, true. Yeah, I have the mentality of why spend money on it when I can make it for twice as much.

You’re an invest, you’re an investor.

Eventually it’ll pay itself up. Eventually, yeah, yeah. When I when I’m eighty, yeah.

70 79 putters later.

Yeah, are you still making putters now?

Yeah, I I’ve I’ve started doing a lot of like divot tools and ball markers and stuff. Um, I still make putters. I actually have a design um that I’m I’m working on. I’ve never had like a mid-mallet um or like a fastback or you know uh double wide blade. And so I’m trying to play with something like that. I’ve the hard thing is I’ve always liked the look of a blade. And and I know the technology and science and the data says, oh, mallets are where it’s at. And I tried out the Phantom 5, and I liked it, but I didn’t like looking at it. And um and so and I had made basically my own version of a uh like a Scotty 009. Um and I I like I love the way it looked. And um, you know, you you do the putting gate drill and you try different things, and you know, that says the the mallet is better. Uh but when I actually stand over a putt when it matters, I’d rather be looking at that blade. And like I put no engraving, nothing on it, even though I have the laser engraver to do it. I just want to look at like I made the putter I wanted to look at.

Yeah.

And um, and that’s the fun part about it, too, is I can I have the ability to do that.

I’m obsessed with putting because I’m I’m not a big hitter. Uh the Joe, Jeremy, and Dan, the other three guys on the show, they they all hit the ball a country mile. You know, they they’re they’re 300 yards, they’re 320, they’re they’re they’re big hitters. Uh and they got the the other parts of the game to to match. But um, I’m not a big hitter. I rely on my short game. And so I I said there’s there’s no reason why I can’t be the best putter in the group. There’s there’s nothing, you know, you don’t have to be big and fast and strong and athletic to be a great putter. You there’s there’s nuances to it. And so I over the last year have really dug in on the putting analytics. Uh, I had Preston Combs, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Preston’s putting, uh, he’s a putting instructor uh based in Florida. Uh had him on the show, he came into town, we went through a fitting or a lesson, I guess you could say. Um, and that blew me away. Uh, I have the Vertex software for data analytics. Uh, because I work for Callaway, we have the the GC quads, and so I have that putting software. And I’m I’m can I’m known as the mayor of Tinkertown. I have probably 25 putters in my closet that I don’t rotate them as much as I used to. I’m I’m pretty dead set. I I’m not gonna call it my forever putter, but it’s it’s in my bag the longest uh right now. It’s a blade putter. Um, but I mean once I got my length right, once I got my lie angle right, and once I got my posture and my setup and everything right that Preston’s been working on with me, my putting has gotten so much better. And so I’m I’m obsessed with it. So when I saw this, I was like, whoa, this is kind of cool. So who’s who’s the media guy between you two? Who’s the one that like if somebody needs to be pitched, who who’s talking? Jackson. All right, all right, Jack. The the floor is yours. Pitch, pitch the audience on Exchange Golf.

So glad I didn’t say me.

Well, I mean, it doesn’t get any more simple than find your feel. And there’s not a product out there that allows you to do that. And you know, it’s it’s finally a product that gives you the freedom to make changes, obviously at the appropriate times, to find out what’s gonna work best for you. And you know, for me, I I think the the elevator pitch is it doesn’t have to be one putter, it doesn’t have to be one grip, you don’t have to be married to it. Feel comes and goes, and you’re allowed to make changes against maybe the the popular opinions of what people think is concrete. And for us, it’s about allowing tinkers to truly tinker. Oh, I’m tinkering without well, it I think it it it’s it’s it’s allowing tinkerers to tinker without wasting because who’s to say that uh what you put on your grip isn’t something you may not like it in the first five minutes, you may not like it in the first five days, you may not like it in the first five weeks, you may you may love it in the first five minutes but hate it after the next five weeks. Who’s to say that you’re not gonna go back and and love it again? You may make changes, like you said, you you work with a very talented coach, and I assume everything you guys work on falls in line with the changes you’re making are gonna be what’s best for you. And what’s best for you may not be what’s on your handle. So then you then you look at it and you go, oh wait, I’ve putted with something on my handle that accommodates what I’m trying to achieve right now in my in my putting. So let’s use thin grip versus wide grip. If what you’re working on is maybe connection and getting a little less hands involved, but you’re currently putting with a a thin grip, and your your coach says, We gotta we gotta stabilize a little bit, and it might be best that your hands are a little bit more separated. Have you ever thought about a wider grip? And you go, well, I’ve thought about it, but I really like this grip, and I don’t want to cut it off and put a new one on, because then if I don’t like it, I’m gonna have to go back.

And and that is the worst, that is the absolute worst.

It’s it it when you think about it, two grips nowadays. I mean, it’s it’s 60 bucks, yeah. Plus plus install plus time. I mean, gosh, it’s it’s it’s a lot to ask. And that’s that’s the reality, is it’s for people that that enjoy trying something different, to see something different, to get a different result. And I I teach golf excuse me, I try to teach golf and try to teach people to to get away from result-based training and maybe training themselves with consequences and maybe training themselves a little bit more process-based. So, what about your process is going to to lead you to the equipment that you’re using? And there’s a lot to be said about that. Um but at the end of the day, if it feels good and you’re you’re seeing the ball start on the line that you want to start it on, nothing beats that. And if your speed, if your speed is good, then nothing beats that. So you can putt with with the greatest putter in the world, you can putt with Tigers Scotty, you know, uh Newport 2 that he putted and and made millions and millions and millions of dollars with. You’re not gonna be able to maybe see the results that he saw. You may love the blade, but the uh ping pp58 or whatever it was that he’s that he’s got on it may not be best that’s in your hands, may not be the worst.

Yeah, I I I roll I play with the the ultimate or the the bigger Carson grip. I played with uh Max for a little while.

What did you play with as a junior golfer?

Oh I I didn’t play golf when I was younger.

What did you start playing golf?

I mean, I played with my friend in you know high school, but I I’m a natural lefty, and so I I couldn’t play golf unless I used my friends’ clubs that were all right-handed. Um, so I had I had to learn how to play right-handed as a lefty, and then it just stuck with me. Uh, a couple years later, I said, Oh, I’m gonna try the lefty thing, and immediately went right back to uh playing right-handed.

Oh, I I’ve thought about putting left-handed, but I’m pretty good at it too.

I just I I posted I posted some videos on my on my IG page uh because I can swing left-handed, and it’s actually everybody says, dude, you’ve got a really good left-handed swing. I’m like, Yeah, but the ball doesn’t go anywhere where I want it to, so not even gonna mess with it.

That’s a great skill to have in your back pocket if you’re up against a tree or something.

Some of the best shots I’ve ever pulled off are turning a club over because I I have no fear of doing it, you know. Right, no, no issues at all.

I don’t think I’d even hit the ball. I just I just take my punch wherever I can and just move on.

Matt, what what drives you to the Garsen Ultimate and what were you putting with before? Before you decided to switch to the ultimate.

So I I was playing with the the typical uh quad tour tapered. That’s I found gosh, uh, right as soon as Bernie hit the market, I ran across his stuff and reached out and had I’ve I’ve been putting with a garzon for a really long time. Never have been a fan of that SS brand as far as putter shafts or putter grips go. Um and I’ve tried a couple other, you know, the lampkins and and everything, but this always felt great in my hands. Um, but when I started working with Preston, and when I I have a swing coach as well, uh Tim Flote out of San Antonio. Shout out Tim Flote. Um, and I was struggling with my putting, and he said, I want I want you to just go watch some videos on Cameron Smith. He is has one of the purest setups and putting strokes on the planet right now. Just go watch him and try to mimic what he’s doing. And so I saw a video that he did through the Live channel about how he grips uh a putter. And that I love the grip, but it was a little too much with with the smaller uh handle. Um so with this grip, my hands just like they marry the grip, and it’s just it just is absolutely it’s one thing I never ever have to think of. Because I I’ve tried left hand low, I’ve tried, you know, uh uh uh different grips, the interlocking, and over, you know, I’ve I would never go to the the what’s what’s this one claw. Claw. I we can’t be friends. Didn’t get that desperate.

But uh so when I when I switched to living off the claw after I, you know decided I wasn’t good at anything else.

Yeah, and and I was close. I mean I was close. I even was like, do I need to go to a long butter? Like, um, but as soon as that as soon as I held that grip in my hand with that grip applied, it’s like it’s taken every thought of how me holding the club is gone, it’s just just not even there anymore. And that for somebody that is crazy stupid analytical, for me standing over going, all right, hips, you know, doing all this, not having that to think about just freed me up so much.

Um so let me ask you a question. If you if you love the head, which we it sounds like you have your forever head, and then you’ve got a grip that your hands marry the grip, you know, so to speak, what what drives you to be intrigued to our product where it could benefit you, even as a tinkerer? Is it something where you’re always looking for maybe that opportunity for something to even be better? Yeah, or I guess how often would you be utilizing the technology to its you know full potential?

So there was two things. Uh, first one is I’m I’m never gonna be satisfied with a great performance because I know I missed a shot somewhere, or I misread a putt, or that lipped out, it could have been better, it could have been better. So I’m I’m always down to try stuff, always down to try stuff. Like golf pride came out with the reverse taper grips, and I gamed one of those for a little while because I liked my right hand being a little I’m right-handed, so my uh my right hand being quieted a little bit more by that thicker bottom section. That was appealing. And I and I rolled it for a little while, um, but ultimately went back to the garden. Uh, and then the the other thing is the fitter in me. The this is this is gold for fitting. I mean, the the the ability uh, you know, I we have with Callaway, we have a big uh like rifle suitcase with all our heads and all our irons, uh, and then we have shaft walls with all our shafts. For our putter bag, we have 25-30 putters, and it it drives. I’ve seen them all, yeah. Yeah, and then we discover vehicle. It’s it’s insane. And so I was thinking, you know, I in my brain, with your product, I’m like one rifle case with all of our putter heads with just this this, you know, this little section, right? And then another rifle case with all the different grip lengths and options. And I’m like, this is this is gold for for a fitting standpoint. If somebody were to come, and I know oh gosh, I want to I I can’t remember the name of the company that does just putter fittings. Um, I know they have a lot of detailed info. Um, but if if I were to walk up to a fitting and they’re like, okay, you play a blade, you play a mallet, what style, but you know, that we’ve got all of our putter heads here. Um, and what length are you? Okay, you’re you play 34, okay. We’ll get you what you’re set up to. And what grip do you like? And then build them that putter and say, here, let’s go roll this, see what you think. That is that’s gold. Because I I as I was saying earlier before we started recording, you know, you have people come up that have no business playing a 34 or 35-inch putter, and we give them that, and they’re like, Here, go roll this. Let me let me tell you all the things that we can change on it to make you a better putter. Can’t show you that right now, just trust me. It’s it’s a hard sale.

Well,

and so from from your experience, how much attention goes into the grip when you’re doing a putter fitting? Because it seems to me like it’s like, hey, here’s the stock grip. We’re we’re focusing on the head, and and that’s just kind of what it is. You can you can find something you might like off of you know golf galaxy or whatever later on.

Um it’s it’s a challenge in in the fitting game because uh with that same thing, our our iron shafts and our driver shafts, we our mid size grips are only on our oversized or over length, uh plus one, plus twos.

We we have the caliber fitting stuff, and it’s yeah, I get it. It’s weird.

It drives us crazy because so many times people come up and they’re playing jumbos and they’re They’re older and they’ve got arthritis. And they’re like, I can’t swing that. Do you have anything that’s fatter? And we’re like, no, we don’t. So it’s it’s certainly a challenge, but with butter.

You don’t have a compressed air system in your trailer that just Hey, I would bring it out if we could. No, I’m just kidding.

Yeah, no, it’s it’s it sucks because you know it then you feel like you’re letting the people down. You know, you know, I came out here to get fit and you can’t even fit me. Um so with with putters, you know, what we have is what we have. Hey, there’s other options, clearly, but I think so many people are just used to going to the store, going to the rack, pulling a putter off, rolling it. Oh, I like the way this grip feels. I’m gonna stick with this style. And you know, there’s there’s not a lot of ways for people to go, hey, I want you to try this grip, I want you to try this grip, I want you to try this grip on that same head, and let’s see if one benefits you more than the other.

That’s the only the only way that people have done it is you have half-cut shafts and they’re on a display, and you’re like, Do you like that? Do you like that? Do you like that?

You gotta have six different putter putters.

I had I have a perfect example in the last week where you get someone that walks into the to the golf shop and they buy four or five hundred dollar putter making a significant investment into that, and it’s almost immediately once their card reader hits the chip and it goes ding, they’re like, Okay, I want to put a super stroke, I want to put a different grip on this, yeah. Edit it out. I want to put a different grip on this because my buddy plays this grip and I putted with his and I like it. And I want to put that grip on my putter that I just invested you know a good amount of money in, and I I’m I want to put this grip on because I like it, because I because my buddy likes it, and because I put it with his for like two seconds, and I think I like it, and so Scotty one last week with it, with it, yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but you know, for for a lot of people that are a little bit conscious of the investment in golf and the investment in golf equipment, what happens if you put that on and you say I got fit at so and so wherever, and I got fit for this putter, and you guys have it, and I want to buy it because I was fit for it. And then you slap a new grip on it, and next thing you know, the dynamics change, everything is different, yeah. And you know, one thing that’s beautiful about our our product is swing weight doesn’t change a whole lot, the way it’s balanced out, it just doesn’t change a whole lot, and that’s one thing that impressed me because you know the grips I have this malt B putter, right?

And everybody knows golf works, malt be does this. This this thing is amazing, by the way. It this is one of the most underrated putters ever. All right, the only mallet I’ll ever malty.

I I mean shout out shout out to anybody listening to this that has ever bought a set of forged maltby clubs from the old golf golf works catalog. They probably yeah, golf smith, they probably still play them. Yeah, because they’re good and they make good stuff.

I put this on and you know it yeah, it has the the the similarities to how the BGTs go on. And um Blair is a friend of ours, and I’ve rolled BGTs in the past, but one of the things that I can’t get over with the the BGT shafts is they’re so freaking light, they’re so light, and they feel very hollow to me. Um I pla I roll LA golf shafts, uh, I like the 135 all graphite. I just for me it works. Um so when I when I put this on, I was kind of expecting that BGT feel, yeah. I’m like, okay, it’s it’s hollow, you know. And the first thought I hit with it, I went, that’s not the same. That’s not the same. Uh so I I was impressed with the weight and the feel. It it I thought it was gonna dramatically change how the putter feels, and it didn’t. And that’s when I knew, okay, you guys are onto something.

Yeah, and I I think the location of where we put the coupling um helps with that because it’s not too far down where you’re you know adding that swing weight. Um and it it it is it is a nice, it’s it took a little bit of development to figure out where, because it’s like okay, someone’s got a 33-inch putter and they want to put a 15-inch garsen uh quad tour on it. 17-inch ultimate baby. Yeah, and and so that’s that’s the challenge is like how far down do you go um and still make it compatible and um without having like added length. And um, so I feel like we found the happy medium and and it also uh didn’t have a huge impact on the swing weight, and that’s kind of why we settled into it. It is a little heavier. Um, I think we’re at like 148 grams is kind of our depending on how long you cut it, but yeah, um right around there. So it’s you know it’s a little more than the la golf um one, but still when it’s it’s also about the dispersion of the weight along the shaft as well. Um and so it’s not all head weight that you’re adding.

Yeah, I was I was blown away. I was like, wow, this is this is kind of cool.

Well, and you know, Jeff Jeff asked us the question, and he asked us this, you know, earlier, and just like when you guys landed on what you landed on, why did you land on it? It’s like, well, first and foremost, because we needed the dynamics of the shaft. We needed we needed it to be 100% parallel because the the connection is cylindrical and it’s perfectly machine cylindrical. So we couldn’t use taper tip, we couldn’t use anything that was uh obviously changing diameter all the way across, so it had to be perfectly cylindrical as well and parallel. And it’s one of those things where you could do a lot of testing and you could and you could play with maybe some different variations, but we we put it in there and we’re like, is it me or is this really good? Is this is this like tell me if I’m feeling something here because it was a hundred percent just that, and yeah, you know, I’ve I’ve probably hit this is ours, but this is good, right? I’ve hit hundreds of thousands, if not over a million, butts my life, and you know when something feels good and you know when something doesn’t, and that’s what kind of landed us to where we are. It’s what we what we were able to to procure to make the concept come to life felt amazing right out of the gate. And I think part of the question was, okay, can we experiment with different weights? Sure, absolutely we can. However, there’s nothing wrong with kind of taking a variation, even if it happens on first, second, third try, and saying, this feels good. And there’s there’s a lot of things about it that do feel good, and there’s nothing that says that you have to puff with a light, light putter shaft, and a lot of people benefit from a heavier putter shaft, and a lot of people benefit from a stiffer putter shaft, and there’s there’s so much to be said about how that shaft performs, how the putter itself performs, and for the majority of people that are putting with what they’re putting with, what’s gonna give them the best chance to even have a possibility of squaring it up? And you think a little bit heavier, a little bit stiffer might have a lot to do with that. Um now for the the purists in the world that are putting with Wilson 8802s, like it’s let’s get it as light as possible and let’s just crenshaw that baby all the way down, and you know it’s all in the hands, it’s all it’s all in the hips. Six degrees of loft. But that’s uh that’s a different conversation.

But yeah. Well, and one of the things I I really liked about too, and and this was right out of the gate, is how connected my hands felt to the clubhead. Um, I’d always just played stock. I I played the Scotty Cameron circa 62 butterfly putter my entire high school career. Um and it wasn’t until I started making putters that I changed it. Um and it was and and that just had the I I still have the stock Scotty Cameron grip on it and never changed grips. That metal shaft, steel shaft. And as soon as I put this on, it was like I can feel the putterhead, and it’s a different feel, like it took a little time to kind of get used to the feel change, but ultimately it was a change in a good direction, yeah. Um, and and that that was just surprising to me. It was like how connected, and and after that, it’s like okay, now I need to just find the grip that and tinker with the grip that gives me even more feel and it gets me even deeper in that rabbit hole, right? Like, yeah, how far can we take this thing? And um, yeah, it’s it was it was really cool, like, and and honestly, right now, if I go back and try to hit a putter with a steel shaft on it, it feels like a wet noodle. And and I don’t know if that’s how everyone feels, but that’s just how it feels to me. And it’s like I I’m biased, obviously, but uh definitely like I I love the feel of how this shaft’s chef feels.

Yeah, something else that it’s helped with it, because I have a build shop in my garage, um, like Jeff does, and you know, I stock a bunch of different Garson grips, and I you know, I’m putting grips on for people all the time. But now I I can I can put somebody like they’re they’re not sure which Garson grip they like. I’m like, okay, well let me hold before it would be I’d hand them a you know just an empty grip and like here hold this. How’s it feel? Oh, it feels good. Well, but now I can just throw it on. I’m like, hey, roll a putt. Roll a putt. Let’s put this grip on, roll it. Let’s put this grip on, roll it.

30 seconds between between putts.

Yeah, and it’s I mean, the the quick interchange, it’s it’s super easy, you know. It just it’s it’s just goes right on. Yeah, right on, and the little set screw, and use your torque wrench, and boom, you’re good to go. What uh did you have any other ideas besides that for the connection?

The the first submission that we actually sent to USGA um was it was an actual set screw, and the pin had like a flat machined on it, so then the set screw bites into that flat, so it gives you that repeatable orientation. Um, and you know, there’d be an Allen key that you you would have in your bag that you can rotate uh to tighten it or loosen it. Um and through the process of conformance, they also look at um use case, uh, which I think of like not in the intended way. So so the like, can you modify the equipment? If I were to install this where the set screw doesn’t bottom out on the flat, then I can actually rotate it and I can modify my equipment without a tool, and ultimately that was deemed non-conforming. Um, and so so we went back to the drawing board. I was pretty disheartened at that point. Um, because I’m like, hey, we got it.

And but then it was like a push. What did the non-engineer say that ain’t gonna fly?

Yeah.

No, it’s all so ultimately we’re like at Jackson, I think you you had the you had the idea, right? Of like, what if we just drive threads right through the pin. And honestly, it had never even registered with me of like tolerance control and how to make sure that this thing like lines up consistently and all that stuff. And and when I we started looking at it, it’s like, oh, I I think we can make that work, and like it’s definitely not just a joint that you can say, hey, let’s just make this and call it a day. Like, it’s you know, it you gotta maintain some tight tolerances to do it, and um and so we tried that out and it’s like, oh, this is actually better. And um, and that and also it had the added benefit of now we can use the torque wrench that comes in every with every single golf club purchase, and you have the positive lot, like the the actual feedback from the torque wrench to say, hey, it’s tight, it’s in and and it was so that was a hidden bonus of hey, we can make the same screw design, we can make the same wrench, and people don’t have to buy an extra tool to make this work, and that was uh when when Jackson had that idea, it’s like duh, we got it.

Every cover has one of these, right?

And if you don’t talk to your buddies, probably got three in his bag. I’ve got 20 in my garage, I’ve got one on my keychain.

We we want it, we talk about all the time we because we always keep them in our pocket during fittings. I said, if we had one of these that are on our neck that you just separate and shh and goes right back her, you know, it would be amazing.

Have you ever used a power drill in your fittings?

Yeah, they just scare me.

They do, but boy, is it fast?

It’s so nice. Well, there’s a hack where you take a ferrule and you super glue a ferrule, and so it’s it’s a it’s a twist spin instead of a oh my gosh, it’s amazing. I’ve done two of them, but they they they break easy. So if the manufacturers of these would just extend a shaft straight up just so you can spin it. So nice.

They don’t care about it.

It’s it’s so yeah, it feels cumbersome in the hand to to do that.

Yeah. I so what’s what’s next? What’s what’s next for you guys? What’s uh in the business model? What’s belly butters? Belly butters? Well, I made for me, I’m short. I’m five I’m 5’8, so uh this 17-inch grip on this made it a a belly putter.

So

yeah, I mean I think for us it’s maybe trying to to tinker around with with some different weight options in the shaft itself and and see if if the joint is going to hold the integrity of the entire shaft itself. I think the lighter it gets, the lighter the shaft is, there is maybe an opportunity for some some disconnection and feel. Um you know I think for us it’s so important that we take advantage of the opportunity that we have a very unique product out in the golf space right now that is uh very new and not exactly market tested quite yet. And it’s uh very much in the early adoption stages. So, you know, our minds are always are always spinning of how we can make it better, how we can make sure that um a quality side of things, everything that we’re putting out is is perfect. Um and so far we’re we’re very confident with with everything that anybody has received at this point, is experiencing exactly what we are, and including yourself, Matt, where we want to be uh very we want to believe that everything that anybody has received is is as good as it gets when it comes to how it’s assembled and how it’s built. And it’s very, very well thought through. Mike has done a very, very good job with creating something that is not going to it’s not going to compromise the golf club in somebody’s hands. It’s not gonna compromise how somebody performs just to get an innovation out there. Um we’ve been pretty calculated as far as as what it what is this what does this look like as far as making sure that this is not so different than what everybody else is currently using. And it just it’s uh and I I’ve said this to Jeff. Jeff is an incredible marketer for us, and and he does an incredible job. Yes, he does. But one thing that I’ve I’ve really really kind of preached to him is we’re high performance and um wow, I can’t think of the word that I’m looking to use right now. No kidding. Highly high performance, high ver high versatility.

There you go.

So it’s uh it’s one of those things where we know that we have a product that is going to allow people to do something they’ve never been able to really do before in a way that they can do it with any grip on the market. And to get performance benefits out of it, along with the freedom and versatility that you get out of our product, it’s hard to believe that you can find anything good that you would rather putt with. And I feel like we’re priced at a a pretty um a pretty fair price, all things considered, when it comes to performance putting shafts. And um get into that. What’s what’s the what’s what can people expect to pay? So $95 gets them an XG1, $129 gets them a uh Discovery Pack, and Discovery Pack is an XG1, so you get your full base to connect to the putter head, and then you get three handles. Um you can pick and choose what grips you want to put on those handles, and you basically have built three putters at your fingertips.

Yeah, and um 130 is freaking awesome.

Yeah, and then the other the other kind of marquee product that we’re really trying to push people into is our ultimate discovery pack, and that includes um an XG1, three handles, and three Garson grips of your choice. And we all know that Garson does an incredible job with their portfolio of products and their the variety that they offer, and it’s not a uh a one shape for everyone type of company, as as they should be with with being a really good putter grip company. But we feel that if you were to to have your putter and have three different handles and have three different grips of your choosing, and have the freedom to change those in and out at your fingertips with a click of a wrench or a twist. Of a wrench, so to speak, it’s hard to it’s hard to beat an opportunity, and and you can get that for 229. Yeah. 230 bucks, it gets you an ultimate discovery pack, so you get a shaft, three handles, and three grips. And you know, when we’re talking in the world of aftermarket putter shafts, you’re buying one shaft for well over $300, and you know, you hopefully like it.

You better like it.

And to add to that, too, like the pricing was like we believe that the quality of the shaft could put us in the world of premium putter shafts. And but there’s also an intentionality and and a responsibility, like we want people to tinker, and so who’s gonna who’s gonna tinker with an a handle that costs $70, right? Like if we were to price it accordingly, and so like an additional handle is what $25. And so like we want it to be accessible, and we don’t want to price people out of the ability to tinker with their golf game. And um, and and I I feel like you know, Jackson and I we’ve had a lot of conversations about that, and and honestly, it’s like from the psychology side of things, like selling it for $300 might actually entice more people to buy it. And there’s freaking golf psychos out there that yeah, yeah, like something good if it’s having sometimes having an extra zero behind it makes it more appealing for people to buy, and but but we also like we’re golfers, we understand what the financial impact is. I’m a golfer that I I pay for everything, right? And you know, so it’s like oh, if if I’m gonna have to spend this much money, I’m just gonna stick with what I got, and and we want people to use it.

And um, and I think that’s important too, is is like I think if you if you look at if you were to buy an XG1, you set up your putter, you get a you get a base, you get a handle, you put whatever grip you want on it, and you’re happy, you get the performance benefits, but you have that one grip, and you spend $100 and you buy four handles, and then you spend another hundred dollars and you get four grips. $200 and you just built yourself 12 putters. Yeah, no, you just built you just built yourself you just built yourself a lot of different combinations, yeah. Yeah, now put an XG1 base in a different putter head and have all those handles. Like I have I have probably seven or eight heads that all have XG1s in them, and I have probably a dozen handles. So again, math strength, but I have quite a few putter combinations that I can go to, yeah. And I can go to based on what my coach thinks is best for me, I can go to based on what my field thinks is best for me, and I can go to based on you know a little bit of what what the statistics are showing me, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, this was one putter, and with the XG1, I have three putters now, basically.

You know, it’s it’s well and and I also I also think there’s an added another hidden, and and this just kind of appeals to the golf nerds out there, but like okay, limited edition grips. Who who’s gonna buy? Say someone was lucky enough to get the masters edition one that sold out in three minutes. Yeah, well, what happens if they change putters and but they fell in love with that grip? Or hey, I’ve got this limited edition grip. Yeah, I mean, now I’ve got I’ve got the players, I’ve got the masters, and and it’s like, well, now I can keep these grips and I can swap them out, and I can have I can get the whole collection, and I’m never gonna have to cut them off. And and I think there’s something something to that too. Like, we there’s no point in buying a grip if you’re not planning on using it.

This is this is never coming off.

This right, there’s no reason for it to right never put putter grips don’t really wear out unless you are playing insane amounts.

This is Jordan Speath, yeah, yeah. But he’s also using that brand that wears out fast, yeah. Doesn’t last so you know, I think the other the other element is there is a craze that’s been leaking into the market even harder than Zero Torque, and it’s been you know it’s not leaking in, it’s already leaked in and it’s and it’s become very, very popular, and it doesn’t appeal to everybody, but it’s very good for a lot of players, and that’s counterbalance. I can go, I can take any of my mallets. I’m not sure I would do it for a blade, but I’ve don’t don’t get me wrong, I’ve thrown a long grip onto a blade and it’s been different. Yeah, I could take any of my mallets and go from standard length 37-38 inches in a heartbeat. Yep. And there’s there’s a lot to be said about that because if you want to take your mallet, throw a longer grip on it because that’s what feels better for you, you either gonna have to go through the whole process of extension, get a new grip, the time, whatever investment that is to make that happen, or you buy a new putter. And I don’t think any, I mean, there are plenty of us probably listening to the show that like buying new putters, but that’s we can alleviate that very, very quickly.

Yeah, yeah.

Perfect example is I when I got this Scotty, I was like, I haven’t played a mallet since the two ball. And great putter, great putter. I my dad’s my dad still has his. Um and so it’s like I’ve never I haven’t played a putter in 15 to 20 years. So do I want counterbalance or do I want a standard grip? And I literally went on to the putting green after getting this, and I had a quad tour, I had the ultimate, I an ultimate 17, and I had the quad tour 15. And I literally sat there for an hour and just tinkered with four different grips on one putter until I found something I liked. And and now I I also have those other grips that I can use on different putters. And and so it’s and I can swap between them if ever I decide. I mean, I haven’t been playing the Scotty, but um if if ever I decide I want to give it a shot, maybe I get the yips somehow and need to need to go to something else.

Um we don’t talk about that on this we don’t talk about whatever.

Yeah.

I so I I know you guys love the positive feedback. I’m I’m a fan, I’m a fanboy. I know you like hearing what I have to say about it. Has there been any feedback that’s been on the negative side that you guys are addressing or have any concerns about?

I I

think I think the biggest one is first of all, a handful of people say it’s gimmicky. Um and you’re you’re entitled to your opinion, Jackson and I would argue against that because we do think it is it is not gimmicky. Um it provides value to golfers and in more ways than one. Um, and then I if plain devil’s advocate, um, we haven’t necessarily heard like the feedback, but um as an engineer or a potential consumer, I would be concerned that I’d be able to feel that there’s a joint in my butter shaft. Um and and that’s one thing where it’s like you guys need to feel it, like you cannot feel any separation.

Any the Medicus, the the training aid that had the the knuckle in it, that if you swing on plane, it didn’t bend, but as soon as you’re off it cracked.

Yeah, I mean though you had to open the face 45 degrees to make it actually work.

I I I’m not gonna lie, when I put this on and got ready to roll the putt the first time, I’m like, I’m gonna feel that. I’m gonna feel it. And if you don’t, I will attest, you do not feel it.

Yep. And and it it’s it’s easy, it’s easy to say, hey, you’re not gonna feel it. And um, and that’s that’s one of the things we’re trying to let people know is like, yeah, you can have your doubts on it, but like it, it does you cannot feel any slop. You can’t feel when you take it back. If you were to shake it, you can’t feel that anything’s disjointed there. And um and it it took time to fit to get that joint just right, and um, but we did.

I think I think there’s also, and as you know, as a club fitter, there’s a massive investment that goes into upgrading to an aftermarket component, and you get a lot of people trying to weigh the options of are my dollars going to result in this making enough of a difference, and I think you see that with aftermarket components, especially shafts, especially putter shafts, because we’re only swinging that thing at about four or five miles an hour. What is it really gonna do? And we know that there are great putters out there that are putting with a very, very typical steel putter shaft. They know how to stroke it, they know how and they they built a feel around that and they did that this and that. Like we we get that, but we also get that whatever you’re putting with, you can make a lot of putts with if you’re making you know, if you’re if you’re stroking it well and you’re squaring it up and starting it online, you have good speed. So with that in mind, we’re the only thing out there that you can putt with, have performance benefits with, but then also create this variation of options and this versatility amongst what is actually sitting in your hands, and that is the single most important part, in my opinion. I think there are a lot of putter fitters out there that will argue against me with this, and I’m totally fine with that. And I I’m not gonna disagree with them that the head means a lot. It just flat out does. But you could have the best fitting of your life and get fit into the best putter you’ve ever been fit for. And if it doesn’t feel good to you, it just you’re just not gonna see results. And I I get the six-week thing, give it six weeks, give it six weeks. I mean, if I had a dollar for every fitter I’ve heard say, give it six weeks, no, you know, I it’s just tough. It’s just tough. Yeah, and putters and people that want to see different results on a putting green, they’re looking for fast results, they’re looking for a quick change, they’re looking for something that’s going to alter their mindset, they’re gonna look for something that’s gonna change their psychology over the ball, they’re gonna look for something that is going to flat out change their feel. And you know, our slogan, find your feel, is is not, I mean, it’s not like we, you know, had someone come up with that for us. It was it was right there, and it that’s what we that’s what him and I were doing. That’s what Mike and I, Mike and Ike, that’s what Mike and I were were doing together is what are we gonna create that’s going to allow this to happen? And for both of us, where that was important, it became pretty easy. So there’s there’s nothing out there like it. There’s nothing out there that gives you that opportunity um at this uh I guess level of ease. Um, and especially from a cost-effectiveness side of things, you’re just not gonna find something out there that’s gonna allow you to invest in options versus a singular option.

All right, the website is exchangegolf at x-h a n gegolf.com. Somebody goes on the website, places an order, how soon can they expect it?

It’ll ship next day. Depends on the weekend. Yeah. A day or two. Yeah. Day or two.

Awesome. Well, guys, I thank you so much. I know it’s late where you are in Michigan. I really appreciate you hopping on. Um, I’m looking forward to seeing the feedback from this. Uh, I know Jake Morrow got uh his hands on some from Made the Range, and he’s loving it. Um you’re you’re gonna start blowing up. I know it. I’m excited for you. Um you’ve got a you’ve got a very unique product on your hands, and uh you should be proud. It’s hard. What you’re doing is hard to do in the golf space. Uh, you know, not a lot of people succeed in this in this industry, and uh, I think you have something that is gonna start turning some heads for a lot of people. So I’m excited for you guys.

Thank you, Matt. We appreciate that.

Uh so the this is gonna be on our YouTube channel, it’s gonna be on the audio formats, it’ll go out to everybody uh next week. Um, and thanks, thank you guys so much again for doing it. Um, I’m gonna talk with Jeff. We’re gonna get our hands on uh uh XG1 and we’re gonna give some away to some of the listeners of the show during the live. Uh so more people will be getting it, the more people that get it, the better it is for you guys because they’re gonna figure it out that uh yeah, this is no joke. So again, thank you so much for popping on, and uh we will we’ll be watching what’s happening tod